(transcribed by Vehyon)

\m [music playing--no dialogue] \m \m

Good morning my name is Allen Lanham, I am Dean of Library services it's a pleasure to welcome you here to the library and the continuation of our speaker series on thee ancient Egypt and all related themes apparently.

I don't know whether it is the mummy from Egypt or the Halloween costume that's joined us here, but it looks like we will have an interesting presentation once again.

We've had a couple of weeks off for professional conferences and other things, and so we're ready to rev up this series once again, and I hope that you will join us this afternoon when Dr. Alan Baharlou will be presenting at four o' clock in this same venue.

And then there are some other events that during the week, please consult the program in the back of the room.

Welcome and I would like to introduce Dr. Wafeek Wahby from the School of Technology who has been the coordinator of this series.

>> Dr. Wafeek Wahby:
Thank you.

Good Morning everybody and welcome to this session on medicine in the land of pharaohs.

You're sick you want to go to a Physician or a Doctor and we the 21st century medical technologist we look into technology now that we are the top of the world, but guess what we will have some surprises 4, 5 thousands years ago from the land with the pharaohs.

This session brings us to the last week of this symposium and another total sigh of relief that we are approaching the end of this symposium, but really a sigh of joy if this term is the right term to say because it has been one as one of thee my collegues said one of the most interesting and successful symposiums that Eiu has ever done.

And it shows how big this world are, but certaintly we are delighted with the outcome of this symposium.

To let me welcome the classes that came today and the professors who brought their classes, thank you I aprreciate that.

And I hope you enjoy this session, and special welcome to the mummy, and a piece of chocolate will be given to whoever recognizes who are the mummy.

[Laughs]

To introduce our distinguished speaker today who is my associate chair for the department we expected our Dean to be here, but he is not feeling well....medicine.

So I leave this to our chair Dr. Woodley.
 
>> Dr. Deborah Woodley: 
Welcome to all of you and I want to bring some greetings from the school of technology as a co-sponsor for this symposium.

I also will be introducing several of the speakers this week as we close out this session it ends on Wednesday night with the dance theme from Kinesiology.

So what I'd like to do is introduce Thomas Hawkins, he's going to speak to us about medicine in ancient Egypt and we'll probably all learn a thing or two about how that technology preserves....I don't know what you're speaking about.

>> Dr. Thomas Hawkins: 
Thank you, I'm glad to be here. 

Can I just put that there, because I have this.

Well I'm glad to be here, and I would encourage you to come back and listen to Dr. Baharlou for if I'd had my druthers if he'd not already taken geography I might of done something with that instead. 

Because that's actually ancient Egypt's culture is very much shaped by it's geography and the regularity of rain, and as opposed to a place like Mesopotamia where life was kind of unpredictable it gave people a much more positive the geography created a much more positive out look.

But I'm going to talk about the interaction between technology and technological change in ancient Egypt we tend to think of technology as something modern as something new, but technology's been around a long time.

You know the first time we developed the ability to knap a flint tool, that's technology.

When we began to be able to use pyrotechnics fire, first to cook and then we discovered you could also use that technology in metallurgy.

So technology is nothing new there's ancient technologies in particular around construction is what I'm going to talk about.

So I want to start, well maybe I won't use this at all let's see if it really works.

How do I get it to go to the next, there we go.

If you were to think of even today I'd like to hear from you what are some ways that technology and medicine interact?

Ways that changes in our technology have created medical challenges, but also the ways that medicine has been itself has been affected by technology, can you think of some?

Anyone yeah.

\I >> male speaker:
[unclear dialogue]

\P >>  Dr. Hawkins:
Yeah, right 1906 the x-ray.

So we developed technologies that could begin to look inside you .

That's early when we have now MRI's and ultra sounds and all kinds of technology thats developed in this century that allows us to do better diagnostics, right.

So sometimes technology improves medicine.

What are some ways maybe technology and technological change create new medical problems even in our own time, can you think of some?

Yeah.

Well yeah, radiation would be another one not just x-rays, but leaking nuclear plants in Japan for example I guess.

I was thinking too about yeah, were you did you think of one?

Oh you were waving at Bev.

\I [audience laughing] 

\P >> Dr. Hawkins:
Hi Bev.

Yeah. 

\I >> female speaker:
We were thinking we extend, thin lines a little too long sometimes.

\P >> Dr. Hawkins:
Yeah, with the use of technology we have ways we can keep someone on life support longer or you can think of somethings like anyone here in the room had carpal tunnel surgery?

Why do people get carpal tunnel?

Yea, right sort of a repetitive stress injury kind of thing, so you can have technolgical change or changes in human use of materials that actually causes new medical problems that people didn't use to have or didn't have as frequently.

So carpal tunnel's a good example can anyone think of another one at all?

Think about it they're probably if you begin to think about it any number of things.

So what I'm going to look at is kind of the way that some of those things between technology and the emergence of some technologies in anicent Egypt kind of created medical challenges and generated medical knowledge and also contributed to medical practice.

So that's kind of what I'm going to look at if these things will advance, there I go okay so we know if you think about ancient Egypt what do you think about as a technology of construction?

Right, stones so if you were thinking about sort of a developing technology that used alot of people to build stone construction what are some injuries, their version of carpal tunnel?

What are kind of injuries that would be associated with the discovery the ability to large scale stone construction, can you think of kind of injuries that might.

Back injuries, yeah trying to pick up big rocks back injuries yeah.

\I >> male speaker:
Fractures.

\P >> Dr. Hawkins:
Fractures, why would people have fractures?

\I >> male speaker:
Well the amount of load their carrying, will probably cause fractures.

\P >> Dr. Hawkins:
Yeah stress fractures, what else?

Smashed feet, smashed fingers on the construction sites today, what do we make people wear?

Hard hats, steel toed shoes, protective eye wear if your dealing with people that are dressing stones in someway you're generating chips that fly every which way.

So all those are kind of stone technologies that Egypt put to work building these things and they generate alot of injuries.

If you look begin to look at some of the text, medical text there is lots of reference to eye injuries and there's tremendous literature on how to take care of bone injuries crushed bones, cracked bones, fractured bones, dislocated bones.

Are all connected with stone technologies in fact there's kind of an Egyptian text called "The Satire of The Trades" this violates the policy on how you do slides right Deborah?

It's a quote from "The Satire of The Trades", the stone cutter uses the chisel to cut every kind of hard stone when he's finished his work his arm are wrecked and he is worn out.

When he sits down at twilight his knees and his back ache.

I speak to you also of the mason who builds walls always outdoors and exposed to the wind, he builds wearing only a loincloth.

No protective eye wear I guess if you're wearing a loincloth you should've come as that instead of maybe next no hard hat, no steel toed shoes.

So we know there are injuries because other text we have from the period and references even talk about workers at consstruction sites being given sick leave and they're references in text to essentially what we would now call the company Physician.

That they actually had a Physicians that were part of the construction site the way there would be supervisors and other people working at them.

And this is I wanted to share with you, this is a tomb of a sculpture.

And is has around it a set of interesting  pictures right, they were their version of photographs and I circled one of them.

Can you see in this picture what it's depicting here?

This guy is working, this one up here is chiseling he's got the mallet and the chisel, and the dust from it is doing what?

Getting in his eyes, and when the dust gets in his eyes he's dropped this is a mallet, what has he dropped?

And where is it landing?

On his toe, so here you have eye injuries and foot injuries.

So he's going to be talking to the company's Physician about a few days off and you can see more dust, this one's chiseling and dust is falling every where and here's another interesting scene down here.

Can anyone guess just looking at this what's happening here?

This fellow is he's got a long tube in his hand, he might be blowing the dust out of his eyes or he's certaintly, and this one you notice you got 'em showing a cloud of dust around his face and up here is his medicine chest.

And here is the vase in which he's fixing or vile in which he's mixing things, so you should think a reed or tube to either pull something out of this guy's eyes or put some sort of ointment in them because it's an on the job injury.

Where is OSHA when you need them? 

\I >> male speaker:
The guy at the stop working, still working?

\P >> Dr. Hawkins:
No he's still working yea that's right and there is third one, I mean there's dust falling every where here if you look up here what this is actually still how this is kind of done that's why it's so easily recognizable, but in this picture what's this guy doing here?

It might just look like he's picking him up of the ground, but he's actually doing something else that a Physician would recognize he's yes.

It's a dislocated arm, it's exactly the way you would sort of put someone's arm back in place when it's been dislocated.

So you have atleast three examples of injuries connected with Egypt's developed this sort of large scale stone technologies that they were using.

You got people who end up picking up something that's too hard or falling and getting bones dislocated, you have people mashing their toe, you have people getting their eyes injured.
 
You have all kinds of injuries associaed with the technologies they're using.

Comment about that picture, other observation about it?

Now there's a Papyrus called the Edward Edmund Smith one Papyrus that is actually a medical set of medical instructions probably primarily for use with construction Physicians in alot of ways.

It describe in it 48 different kinds of trauma that a Physician can treat and 33 of those are fractures of one kind or another.

Again if you have people engaged in stone construction you're going to end up with alot of people who have broken bones and crushed bones and dislocated bones. 

And there are 27 surgical operations that concern again pathologies of the skull or face again, you know there's a reason we make people wear hard hats now on a contruction site you end up with alot of skull and face injuries when people are working with stone technology.

There is six references in it that deal with neck or the collar bone again these are most of these are fractures and dislocations, and just a few of them deal with things that are lower.

In fact the whole text is organized sort of starts at the top of the body and works down in terms of these injuries.

And each one of the observations about these injuries is very formula.

It always begins with a title that says instructions concerning fracture of this or crushed that and then there's a scription that begins, if you examine a man having and then it will list the symptoms.

And then at the third part of each observation is you'll say to him, so you know the person comes to you with an eye injury because a chisel has knocked a chip into his eye you can't see or its all bloody you examine it and it looks like this.

So then you say to the person who has a , you say Tom or Jas or Bill or whoever.

This is what you're going to do, and then in each of them he gives you three choices.

So then you say an ailment 	I'll treat, an ailment which I'll struggle with, an ailment for which nothing can be done, what does this sound like? 

Anyone to have been to an emergency room?

It's triage, it's exactly it's I look at you, and you have a minor injury and I can treat it pretty quickly.

I look at whether the observation or description, and I say well this is going to take a little more time, but there's a chance and the third triage is not the group you want to be in right?

The one where he says there's not very much I can do for you, so again alot of these are fractures and injuries that are obviously connected with the technologies they're using.

And what's fascinating about this is even in the cases where it says can't do anything, the text is clear you don't abandon someone it says take care of him don't abandon him, try to I guess we would call this now Palliative care.

Try to make someone comfortable even if they're so badly injured they're not going to survive.

And almost, it's almost as a last resort that there's a reference to magic.

So using some sort of incantation or some sort of spell.

Otherwise it's absent, actually it's absent from alot of these text which is interesting because if you compare Egypt with Mesopotamia the answer for any kind of ailment in Assyrian among the Assyrian's text on the cuneiform tablets is almost always magic.

Because if you live in a geography where your borders are open and anyone can invade you at any time and the rivers flood, but they flood unpredictably what kind of world do you feel like you live in?

If everything's unpredictable a dangerous and uncontrollable world compare that with Egypt that had deserts, it have boundaries on each side that pretty much protected it from invasion.

The floods on the Nile are they erratic and unpredictable?

Yea, but most of the time within some range you can kind of... 

\I >> male speaker:
[unclear dialogue]

\P >> Dr. Hawkins:
They knew when they were coming and they relied on them to bring soil, new fresh soil in.

So you're dealing with a culture for which life felt alot more predictable and safe, and so it's need to resort to magic was alot less than the Mesopotamians that felt alot more life uncontrollable unpredictable, and therefore you know you just sort of do whatever.

It produce a kind of approach to medicine that was much more rational and practical and saw things as predicatble and fixable in alot of ways.

And it's interesting that where the greeks acquired much of their interest in medicine and much of their knowledge was from the Egyptians.

That this is kind of practical observational based kind of approach which would have been based in the technology as well appealed again to the greeks, made more sense than just magic.

We also know if their version of their response to construction technology was alot of broken bones they had to fix alot of fractures.

And in many tombs and on many mummies they knew how to use splints they were very skilled in the technology of being able to set bones, obviously if you do it enough times you'll learn how to do it well, but in many tombs you'll find examples of splints.

This is another picture of a version of that shoulder reduction they knew about because of the kinds of injuries that they had related to the technologies they were using they were pretty skilled at things like splints about dislocations and how to fix them.

The eye injuries we mentioned, so let's talk about what you do when you get a crushed foot.

If your foot really gets crushed what even now might be done with a toe or a finger if it just gets completely mashed by a multiple ton rock.

Will a splint help you?

\I >> female speaker:
Amputate.

\P >> Dr. Hawkins:
You'll amputate it.

If a rock, this is why steel toed shoes on a construction site are helpful.

You know I would have great difficulty standing If I didn't have my big toe?

You would think something so small as our big toe isn't that important to us, but actually our big toe is essential for us to be able to stand.

Think about it for a minute if you didn't have your big toe think how often you balance yourself using it or when you're walking or running.

Think how often if you pay attention you're always using that big toe if it werent there you'd have problems.

So the mallet, the stone falls on someones big toe what happens to them?

It's amputated what do you have to do, well you developed if technology if the stone large scale stone construction creates problems technology kind of solves them.

This is from a mummy.

It's an artificial toe so interesting piece of construction.

Also not long ago I read this book called "Catching Fire" is the name of the book it's by an Anthropologist who teaches at Harvard and his argument is we became human when we learned to cook, that cooking is what makes us human because once you cook food you dont need as big of a gut which frees up energy to use in other ways once you cook and you can soften.

He talks about how some of our near relatives chimpanzees and guerrillas if they eat meat which they do, they have to sometimes spend like six hours chewing it in order to get it all broken down and swallowed.

Well if you cook meat it makes it really digestible so you know once we learned to cook things we could eat meat take it's energy and not spend all day consuming energy trying to break it down enough to get it in our stomaches.

So one of our earliest technologies really is cooking, and the ability to cook and it's because we learned to cook food that we discovered how to make metal without pyrotechnics, without mastery of fire and how to control fire and how to intensify fire you would never be able to develope bronze or tin or any of those other things that we learned as we used fire to not just cook food, but melt things or make bricks that you fire that make them more hard all of those are pyrotechnics.

It's a new technology that we developed on our very early.

So you have sort of technological innovations in Egypt early on in food production.

Egyptians loved bread.

Now why might bread, well any of you eat wonder bread? 

We eat it because it's nice and soft.

So it's sort of hard to imagine bread would cause any problems with your teeth right, even if you buy whole wheat bread.

Whole wheat bread is pretty soft too right?

Why might as you introduce sort of large scale production of grain and the technology associated with that and the technologies associated with making flour, making bread, why might that have kind of a bad effect on your teeth?

Any clue?

In an age of wonder bread it's hard to imagine this just take a wild guess anyone.

\I >> male speaker:
The bread would probably be hard.

\P >> Dr. Hawkins:
The bread would probably be hard, but it's also what's in the bread, yeah.

Right they had much more tooth decay because you end up with you know you're eating bread, and I don't think they'd invented a tooth brush yet, but yeah tooth decay is a big problem.

In fact some of the mummies like Ramses the second had, you know he must've been in an enormous pain.

He had a abscess, its not uncommon in some mummies to find abscessed teeth because of those degrees of tooth decay, but there's another reason if you're how did.

Yeah.

How would sand get in your bread?

When, when you're winnowing it and where might some other places that rock would get in your bread?

Yeah, yeah , yeah mummies can't talk, but he's right if you're grinding it and you're using stones to grind your bread what's left to get in your flour?

Little pieces of rock and if you are harvesting it you know you don't have a combine out there, with a nice cab on it air conditioning and the radio on.

What kind of tool at this early age would you be using to harvest bread with, wheat with, grain?

A sickle probably made of flint stone, so you're using technologies to do all this that involve stone.

Again these people love stone, well atleast it lasted a long time, not like plastic.

So you get people with a kind of general wearing down of their dental surfaces.... you better watch out over there.

In general lot's of places their teeth are just worn down, and when they've done testing of the bread samples because bread was left in the tombs with people.

It's part of their, feed them, after life and in their journey there.

It all has a very high mineral and little stone, little stone mixed in with the grain because you got using technologies like flint, sickles, you've got stone grinders you've got sand gettting mixed into it from the winnowing or the way it's stored and sand blowing into it.

So if people have alot of dental problems what's a technology they might have developed to help deal with bad teeth?

What do we do you think they had root canals they went to the dentist and the dentist gave them a root canal you don't think they had a root canal.

They might, yea they pulled them and ofcourse it makes it very hard to eat if you've had your teeth pulled.

So actually they had developed, that's from a mummy.

What is that?

It's a bridge yeah.

You who go to one of the dentist in town and even now they would do something like that, well not exactly.

Are you suprised that early, they would have the technology?

Yeah.

\I >> male speaker:
They didn't give anesthetics at all?

>> Dr. Hawkins: 
No.

[laughs]

Not like we know anesthetics and they wouldn't've even had you know in the we talk about in the civil war you know they would give people a good swig of whiskey and pull their teeth or pull the bullet out or something.

Well they did have alcohol by our standards their version of alcohol would be very weak about a third to half the alcohol content that our beer would have.

They had beer, beer was very common because beer you know probably developed by accident when we started eating grains.

The easiest way to eat alot of them was to eat them as gruel, you know you just sort of mix it up into a mash or paste and ate it.

Sort of like the Scott's eat oatmeal or grits or something.

But if you left it a gruel for a little while made of barley, what would you eventually whether you intended it to or not what is it likely to do?

It's likely to ferement and become beer.

So they you know very early in our domestication of grains we invented beer in fact we know the Sumerians had it, Lee could probably tell you all about that, but they drank it out of straws this is not the Egyptians I don't know how they drank their beer, but the Sumerians drank beer out of shared vessels through straws.

Why did they have to drink it through a straw? 

Yeah, yeah it was dirty it had stuff floating in it, so you had to have a straw to drink the beer, and which makes if you think about it beer was essentially it was a social experience of bonding drinking it because you drank out of the same vessel.

And there's a interesting book by Standage called "The History of The World In Six Glasses" if any of you are interested in it, it  talks about beer, wine, distilled liquor, coffee, tea, and Coca-Cola.

It kind of goes through the impact of those drink on human history, but one of the points he makes is there's sort of a echo of drinking beer out of a shared vessel, and what do people do lot's of time when they bring glasses or mugs of beer to the table what do people do?

Yeah they clink the glasses against one another symbolically what is that representing?

Our glasses merging Standage claims it's kind of this echo of the we've been drinking beer together for a long time, but any way teeth they developed kind of a technology of teeth, caring for teeth, although that looks like it would've hurt.

Another technology that the Egyptians developed was mummification and you probably know originally that was something that was just done with elites.

As time passed and we're talking centuries it tended to filter down to other layers of the society, but if you're if you have people engaged in mummification which was kind of a gruesome process actually pulling the brains out with hooks and things.

Cutting the body and treating it, drying it out.

What would some people what kind of knowledge would the developing technologies associated with mummification give you, what would you learn alot about? 

Anantomy yeah, you'd learn a tremendous amount about anatomy and physiology in fact they didn't understand what vessels do, but they understand they called them tubes, but they understood about arteries and veins and bones and you know know you would gain a tremendous amount of knowledge of the human anatomy and of physiology simply by the growing technologies that were apllied to  mummification.

And to do that you've got to develop the tools which is what technology is to engage in mummification, but once you developed those tools and that knowledge what else can you use them for?

On the living as well as the dead?

So you have and these are things that are found on various sites, they had lots of surgical knives.

They aren't necessarily ones I would want my surgeon using on me, particularly without anesthesia...or antiseptic.

In fact what they used is in some of the cases, what their recipes for kind of what you put on wounds that were boiled were versions of excrement.

Which doesn't seem to me like that would be really what you would want to put on a wound, but they would put excrement on it.

Scalpels, surgical knives that were used on people cooper needles because once you've engaged in mummification you they're things you've got to sew, and those then become needles that they can use to do things on other people.

And there is a famous piece of construction back to Bev's ancient photograph this may come from ptolemaic times it does come probably from ptolemaic times.

So it's not entirely clear all of these surgical instruments are Egyptian some of them may be Roman, but it's from a tomb of someone who was a physician and it has on it in all these panels A, B, C, and D representations of surgical and medical tools.

Some are easy to identify what does that, that actually is a sponge.

Just looking at it and remembering that earlier picture can you tell what those two things are?

Yup those are four steps these are some sort of viles.

There are, these are again like those surgical knives.

I wrote these down because I wouldn't be able to recognize these myself without alot of help.

Whoops oh my gosh where do i go, wrong way.

D4 oh yeah shears any of you raised sheep, any one you here sheared sheep? 

Alas I'm the only one in the room, and I still have my father's sheep shears you know where we sheared off the sheep's wool in the spring.

And this actually this is a pair of shears that looks a awful lot like the sheep shears I had used as a child.

Can you see the blades?

And the knive, knives at the end.

C3, 4, these are various kinds of hooked things that you would use to pull something out originally things like that were used you know how they in order to mummify you, you've  got to the brain and all those things out.

The way they did that is they used hook things went and pulled your brain out through your nose, put in a canopy jar.

A7 is a saw, a saw to use to cut through someone's bone or flesh muscle when you have to amputate it.

So you know they had a whole panoply reportoire of medical tools medical technology that developed over time in part in response to needing to deal with the kinds of medical challenges they were  faced by the technologies they were using.

So now to that last one, so what can we learn about the Egyptians ancient Egypt about kind of the relationships between illness and medicines and technologies that's still true today?

Anyone thought is there a relationship between technology and medicine or illness?

What would your nodding your head what would you how would you state it?

\I >> female speaker:
[unclear dialogue]

\P >> Dr Hawkins:
Yeah good, yeah 

\I >> male speaker: 
I think technically what we do reflects kind of replace how we do.

\P >> Dr. Hawkins:
Yeah there's a relationship between how our society works kind of labor we engage in andn the kind of illnesses we suffer from, mean carpal tunnel's one example you could talk about you know there's alot of diseases related to just like they had disease related to their diet bread with alot of rocks in it.

We have diseases that are related to our diet also dont we?

You know we talk about our diet has too much of the wrong things in it or we're too sedentary because technology does so much work for us we dont have to physically labor maybe once we the way we once did.

So there are some complex ways in which the technological systems we use ours are different than the ones the Egyptians use, but just as theirs created particular kinds of medical problems for them.

Our technologies create particular kinds of medical problems for us and the other side of that is that drives technological change and innovation in the treatment of medicine as well that as their technologies created certain kinds of illnesses certain kinds of medical challenges they came up with medical technologies that addressed the kind of problems they had.

That's still true for us?

Can you give an example of how it's still true for us?

Anyone.

I was thinking when I was thinking about this when I was thinking about the artificial toe, and I was thinking about all of the innovation in the last few years as people have come back aren't alot of our because we live primarily in a militarised country imperial country we have lots of troops deployed in various places that come back with very severe injuries.

So what kinds the military technologies we have we can also keep people alive that once would've died on the battle field there's alot of literature about that.

About you know you look at the death rate versus the in Vietnam, versus in Iraq or Afganastan.

So we keep people alive that once would've died on the battle field, but what kind of injuries often do they come back with?

Lost of limbs, lots of head injuries and so what kinds of technologies have we developed it's amazing to me the kind of limb replacement we're taliking about now.

Or even people who've lost their sight developement of technologies that help people with eye injuries see you know the, there's ways in which some specific kinds of injuries  that we have now  in our society create medical technologies that specifically address limb replacement and head injury and that sort of thing.

But you can think about that in any number of that's kind of one over here you can think of carpal tunnel over there you can think of  alot of examples too.

So that's kind of the main idea I wanted to get across comments?

Questions, time to go.

\I male speaker:
Incorrect to think that how I always thought that people did the work on pyramids in kind of moving pretty much slave like labor and yet it seemed like thee uh physicians were very compassionate to stay with a patient even though it doesn't look very good, Is that uh?

\P >> Dr. Hawkins:
Well I thought that all that stuff was built by space aliens.

[laughs]

I think we probably it probably was slave labor, but you know what's interesting about the Egyptian literature is again compared with Mesopotamia these were very gentle people every thing and they had a really , you read the Egyptian literature their poetry and their stories.

They are very gentle people they still are, but so the compassion doesn't surprise me it's you know you read Gilgamesh, that's in gilgamesh it's the robotization of humans you know gilgamesh before he goes out and leaves off building the wall you he's treating his own people as slaves to build the wall and gilgamesh and atrahasis the babylonain myth why are humans created?

Well gods got tired of doing the work so the gods create human beings to do the work that gods don't want to do I mean essentially their view was human beings are just objects of state capitalism, slaves of state capitalism, robots, but the Egyptians in some way were more had a more humanistic I think a more gentle view of human nature then certainly the Mesopotaians did.

My view I dont know we might not agree with that I don't know.

>>  Wafeek Wahby:
I have a question, a quick question.

Is there any really a threat that ties chemistry physician, magician, priest, religious thing in that time or is there any thread that tie these together?

Magic and chemistry, religion, and what are they Physicians.

>> Dr. Hawkins:
Well everything's tied to religion in the ancient world so the quick answer is yes, but the specifics of that I probably don't know.

>>  Wafeek Wahby:
Any other questions?

Well.

>> Dr. Hawkins:
All done.

>> Wafeek Wahby: 
Thank you very much.

\I [audience applausing]

[no dialogue]